Attempt at adding balance to dem stealthers

[Tomtefan]

Suggestions on balancing stealthers further and rewarding stealthers that solo compared to the ”shadowzerg”:

Suggestion 1: Change the str/con debuff to a str/dex debuff, this would strengthen SBs compared to the pierce/thrust wielding Infs/NSes while still reducing defensive skills over the board (against shield tanks it reduces block/parry chance and if evade is still based on dex/qui it reduces evade as well)

Suggestion 2: With this str/con debuff change PA will start to matter again in order to determine which player that wins the fight. In order to further promote this I suggest a 15-20~% PA damage boost overall.

Suggestion 3: Remaking the hamstring chain so people will feel rewarded for speccing in it to a high degree and making the cs line more valid for the overall assassins. Remake Leapers effect to a 6 second stun and totally revamp Ripper to the following:

When you actually perform the Ripper style on your opponent then you will get the following message: ”You successfully perform Ripper bla bla” and after the damage they get ”You dart your way through your opponents defense and rip a gaping hole in his body causing him to start bleeding uncontrollably”

He will get the following: ”<f00>s weapon slices through your body causing you a critical wound” (or something like that)

The bleed effect should overwrite all other bleeds and should be a 20 sec duration bleed with the frequency of 2 sec and variation between 10-40 damage per tick. (Subject of tweaking ofc but the general idea is high damaging varied bleed signaling the uncontrolled bleeding the wound causes).

Suggestion 4: Instead of finishing the melee triad as in ”DW halves evade/block and 2h halves parry and single does nada”, I suggest the following change. Remove DWs evade penalty and add it against arrows. That would strengthen archers against assassins as they shouldn’t really stand a chance of losing if they manage to pop the assassin at max bow range and have him evade 50~% of their arrows. (And it would partly compensate for the evade chance loss from the str/dex debuff)

Suggestion 5: Disable minstrels ability to stealth when they are grouped with another player in a RvR zone. This would reduce the overall whine directed towards the class without them losing any of their utility, (hell the class is still among the best in entire DAoC).

Suggestion 6: In order to strengthen the soloing stealthers against the shadowzerg I suggest something I saw implemented in a DAoC emulator project known as ”Dark Ages”. The system was simple but excellent. It made realm mates capable of seeing friendly stealthers from clipping range but the most important change was that stealth became weaker when there was more stealthers in the area. (As in if there were like 3 people within 800 units which was stealthed then they would lose 5-10 effective stealth~). I dont have any exact numbers for this suggestion but surely someone has some good feedback on it.

Suggestion 7: Another change which I suggest to improve the SB slightly against other assassin classes is giving them LA base damage calculation which looks like
65 + spec * 0,344 (current is 60 + spec * 0,344, shoot me if it isn’t for that’s what I remember), giving them a higher base damage successfully enabling them to spec higher CS if they intend to go for the classic critblade spec. (This would enable SBs with 44+16 LA spec to get 100% base damage with DR5 which is a subject of tweaking if required if Mythic intends to keep the uniqueness of characters and avoid raising their specpoints). <-- This might not be necessary after the str/con debuff change to a str/dex debuff due to WS/damage might get resolved through that solely.

Suggestion 8: With the change of the Hamstring chain to the above suggestion then the dragonfang whine would subside slightly. But in order to add utility to the thrust specline anyway I suggest adding a 10% dps debuff effect to the dragonfang style and making it chain off Pierce. Thus adding utility to thrust specced tanks but not removing it for the infils/mincers/scouts/whatever that specced 50 thrust.

Suggestion 9: With the boosted PA damage Vanish will have to be remade into the ”Get-away card” it was intended to be instead of being a free PA. I suggest revamping vanish into instantly moving/teleporting the player 500-700 units in a random direction and stealthing him giving his opponent time to react on the opponent vanishing etc. Add a message which the opponent gets upon player vanishing like: ”<f00> suddenly vanishes into the surroundings so fast that you lost track of him/her”. Of course disabling this ability in the vicinity of relic keeps for a obvious reason.

Suggestion 10: Increasing damage of the nightshades magic line (Midnight Strike and Lance of Night) by 25-30% overall and making the spells base themselves on CS spec for variation in order to enhance the feeling of the nightshade being a ”stealthy spellcaster” instead of just having a random instashout every now and then.

Suggestion 11: Changing shadowrun into something which would actually fit the God of Trickery, (Loki). Without trying to imply anything I would actually want to see a type of ”flashbang” being implemented as the SBs unique RA. What I was thinking is a ability which turns the entire screen white for a few seconds enabling the SB to get away or use the entire situation for his advantage (People with some control of the situation might still be able to use their styles successfully and keep themselves /sticked but it’s at least better overall then Shadowrun). This is a single target ability with a 30(?) min timer which affects only the target of it. Duration of the effect and strength of the brightness is also a matter of discussion…

Please do note that I’m a Albion player at heart and could never successfully list other realms problems without failure.

These suggestions are partly based on a test which me and Yussef performed earlier which made it safe to assume that %-ual gain in WS = %-ual gain in damage, if I manage to dig out the data used in the test I will post that also later. Also these suggestions are totally a fiction of my mind which makes them a matter of opinion.

The meaning about this post is (hopefully) serious feedback and I accept flames as long as you motivate WHY it sucks. In the end this might turn into something worth sending to mythic but as I came to Flamershouse I might be in for a hard time.

Do not turn this into a discussion about buffbots and their individual performance please as it's a quite old topic and all there is to say about them has been said at least twice.

Play nice now children

[Glendower]

heheheheh!

If you think any sort of "balance" will be coming to stealthers, where they as a group have the highest percentage of dual accounts, you are deluding yourself.

Maybe if enough of the regular players quit over the issue, it will then be addressed. There is pressure building to include that aspect of the game in the Frontiers changes.

[Tomtefan]

It's not primarly about balance between stealthers and other classes such as (hybrids,tanks,caster,support) but it's meant mostly about stealther vs stealther balance. Even with the antistealther node added and stealth lore assassins are still the bane of themselves (as in you face mostly other stealthers when you play a stealther)

[Asty]

Some very good ideas there, definitely think CS line should be made more important and PA damage raised.

[Smurflord]

I have to agree with some of the comments here, mainly about making CS worth speccing in again.

The Critical Strike from stealth use to serve it's function. One almighty surprise attack, and then a few mediocre other styles to finish them off with. But with the increase in armours, spellcrafting, RAs, ablatives etc etc, this has been utterly neutered.
I respecced to mercfil, not because I wanted to be uber or l33t or fotm or anything (anyone who knows me knows I'm not like that), but simply I got fed up of PA only hitting for 10-20% of a persons life. Many is the time that I PAed a hunter, only yo be hit back for more damage by their anytime style. It makes a mockery of it.

Surprise attacks is what the assassin classes are ALL about. Make CS worth a damn again, and we'll stop being light tanks again and go back to being what we were supposed to be.

Let's hope the style review they are working on addresses these issues.

[Laston]

was gonna post an idea but nevermind

[Damon_D]

some nice idea's

str/con buff changed to WS/con debuff , not str/dex thank you very much

[Tomtefan]

Originally Posted by Damon_D

some nice idea's

str/con buff changed to WS/con debuff , not str/dex thank you very much

You missed the entire point of removing the con part of the str/con debuff. It's not mainly for putting pure str assassins at a better position against str/dex weaponbased assassins but it's more for forcing people to rely on PA to do their initial damage instead of going for the "unstyled" blow and still removing 400-500~hp with their str/con debuff. :x

[Damon_D]

Nahh didnt realy miss it , but its just that this " we must do all dmg via pa " thing just puts infil's on top again , atleast as long as they can afford to drop more points into stealth , due to 2,5x spec points , especialy at low RR SB's and NS's will be at a dis-advantage here. The classes need's to be given equal amount of points , and then tweak em from there imho
But I guesse ws/con debuff wont help much there either , because yet again the xtra points make it so infil's can have higher env spec , guesse we could make it ws/dex but that would prob be to heavy in the SB' s favour , and hammer the NS to hard...You have some realy nifty ideas , but its not easy to balance these buggers , and aslong as we dont get equal spec points its not realy possible imho......

[Tomtefan]

Originally Posted by Damon_D

Nahh didnt realy miss it , but its just that this " we must do all dmg via pa " thing just puts infil's on top again , atleast as long as they can afford to drop more points into stealth , due to 2,5x spec points , especialy at low RR SB's and NS's will be at a dis-advantage here. The classes need's to be given equal amount of points , and then tweak em from there imho
But I guesse ws/con debuff wont help much there either , because yet again the xtra points make it so infil's can have higher env spec , guesse we could make it ws/dex but that would prob be to heavy in the SB' s favour , and hammer the NS to hard...You have some realy nifty ideas , but its not easy to balance these buggers , and aslong as we dont get equal spec points its not realy possible imho......

I doubt mythic will change the amount of specpoints again so lets stick to suggestions without trying to change that, I do know that lowrr NSes aren't on par with lowrr infils but instead they grow exceedingly powerful at higher RRs (Hi AP3 + af charge + mop3-4 + conc haste)... SBs is given a higher LA base damage which is equal to 15~ free LA spec levels which would free enough points for them to reach a decent level of CS. (If that LA base damage change would prove required or not with the str/con debuff change).

[Glendower]

Go post your suggestions with your class TL.

There ae links to all of thier boards at VN if you dont already know where they are.

Posting here does nothing since Mythic doesn't read these boards

As to the rest; Yes, Infils are overpowered in several ways vs other stealthers, but that is just another symptom of the basic unbalanced BS that stealth as a whole is in this game.

Sloppy and poorly thought-out as are most things involving game structure, unfortunately.

I see Mythic is advertising for new employees again, lol!

[Tomtefan]

The plan is to send it to some TL when it has matured enough, but I still need a bit more feedback before I will send it...

[mts]

some very nice suggestions.. you should really post this on the developers round table thingy at the vn boards.

[Mavl]

Originally Posted by Tomtefan

Suggestion 4: Instead of finishing the melee triad as in ”DW halves evade/block and 2h halves parry and single does nada”, I suggest the following change. Remove DWs evade penalty and add it against arrows. That would strengthen archers against assassins as they shouldn’t really stand a chance of losing if they manage to pop the assassin at max bow range and have him evade 50~% of their arrows. (And it would partly compensate for the evade chance loss from the str/dex debuff)

dw against shields, 2h against parry, 1h against evade would be best. The game is not just about stealthers you know.

Originally Posted by Tomtefan

Suggestion 5: Disable minstrels ability to stealth when they are grouped with another player in a RvR zone. This would reduce the overall whine directed towards the class without them losing any of their utility, (hell the class is still among the best in entire DAoC).

"Aahh look! theres that mincer trying to sneak past us again! lets gank him with our fg, he cannot be grouped anyway."

Also, you are aware that this would actually disable a whole specline(which ppl do put pts in) while grouped ?

Originally Posted by Tomtefan

Suggestion 6: In order to strengthen the soloing stealthers against the shadowzerg I suggest something I saw implemented in a DAoC emulator project known as ”Dark Ages”. The system was simple but excellent. It made realm mates capable of seeing friendly stealthers from clipping range but the most important change was that stealth became weaker when there was more stealthers in the area. (As in if there were like 3 people within 800 units which was stealthed then they would lose 5-10 effective stealth~). I dont have any exact numbers for this suggestion but surely someone has some good feedback on it.

This game is designed around grouping, and this mechanic would be against the game design.
The easiest solution for the problem of a load of stealthers killing you would be if your stealth lvl didnt increase your chance to see other stealthers(you can see other stealthers as good as normal ppl can see them) . This way stealthers do not see eachother = no stealther gangbangs at milegates. Dont want to be rolled over? Do not pop in crowded place, but you are free to pass by. You are an assasin, go assasinate someone. Of course this would prevent stelthers from "guarding" some caster, but when was the last time you did this? ^^ Ofc this will never be implemented as we already have stealth lore etc. But adding a penalizing mechanic isnt the best way either.

Originally Posted by Tomtefan

Suggestion 9: With the boosted PA damage Vanish will have to be remade into the ”Get-away card” it was intended to be instead of being a free PA. I suggest revamping vanish into instantly moving/teleporting the player 500-700 units in a random direction and stealthing him giving his opponent time to react on the opponent vanishing etc. Add a message which the opponent gets upon player vanishing like: ”<f00> suddenly vanishes into the surroundings so fast that you lost track of him/her”. Of course disabling this ability in the vicinity of relic keeps for a obvious reason.

People cant just teleport, and this ability isnt magical.
Adding a short timer during which you cannot atack from stealth would be better.

[Marczje]

When I saw the thead I thought lets flame some of his ideas.. but heck, you pointed out several very nice ideas.. 1 thing u did forget though, I know you're an alb player.. but you have to admit that besides changing the AP ability for a ns dragonfang should be adressed also..