Possible 8v8 setups on Origins?

[Cadelin]

Originally Posted by Patriarch<>Matriarch

About the sorc stuff, ofc a sorc CAN do it all but enemy group will not have a hard time locking one class, it is like placing too many eggs in one basket going to the market... if you loose one egg you loose them all basically.

Thats why Bard who can cc, and interrupt, end song, spd for support to pre kite...
An Eldritch, diease spam ( form of cc + interrupt + cripple heals for burst dmg ), aoe snares ( cc ), ns..
and a Champion with ST, instant interrupts, debuffs, slam, 2h dmg will have it alot easier doing the rupts, it is spread over 3 classes that does the same thing in diffrent ways. It will be superior to a sorc running away from a bers the whole fight

But you can say that about any class. Its far easier to lock down a bard than a sorc because a bard has to push. Also the bard can't play end and speed because you can't cast while twisting.
If you have a good cabalist he can disease spam, nearsight etc and can debuff for both himself and the sorc to take down over-extended tanks. A minstrel has a ranged insta stun on a very short re-use timer as well as 2x DD and he has a pet can can go into melee mode unlike a bard who will lose his chants if he does.

[Manisch Depressiv]

Theorycraft at its best.

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Originally Posted by Faeldawn

Wardens are very versatile, post ToA wardens became BG bots when they have a lot of very useful tools. Wardens are not an assist tank train class, but they can take any healer out of the game. Get a warden on yer ass and you'll need to call in help to scrape him off, you can't outrun him. If one player can tie-up two or even three opponents then your effectively 7v5 for a while.

Don't knock their use as a backup healer/rezzer either, if your healers are interrupted a good warden can kick out decent single line heals if needed.

A good, well played warden who knows what to do and reacts well to the situation is a great asset to have in a hib 8-man. They cannot take or deal damage like a hero or champ, but they bring a lot more to the party.

Side note, pre-SI wardens did not have celerity, hots, shield spec etc so a lot depends on what Mythic decide to do with them and all the other classes as it's unclear at the moment if they will all be current, pre-SI or some combination of both.

Wardens can guard well with some dex3, mob3 np. Thing is a champ or a hero can do that job aswell, just as well probably better and you do not loose a spot to a class that has situational value only, as I see it though.

PBT useless. Celerity when guardian, useless ( well it is nice when slam spamming tbh, I can admit to that..but dragon large shield is low endo use 3.0 spd... caped slam spd @ 228 qu and red haste 10% melee spd, go 250 qu and your basically there without the 10% spd).

The resists are nice when beeing nuked without a debuff, but 8 man groups will probably not worry you unless they do land a debuff where it no longer matters if you have 26% or 46% it will go down to neutral figures and cap dmg anyway.

Hots, abit overrated in 8v8 if you ask me... emergancy heals, well I rather have another dps or another high util class in the group. Ah well I guess it is a matter of preference and playstyle, for a pbaoe group I would consider a warden.

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Originally Posted by Cadelin

But you can say that about any class. Its far easier to lock down a bard than a sorc because a bard has to push. Also the bard can't play end and speed because you can't cast while twisting.
If you have a good cabalist he can disease spam, nearsight etc and can debuff for both himself and the sorc to take down over-extended tanks. A minstrel has a ranged insta stun on a very short re-use timer as well as 2x DD and he has a pet can can go into melee mode unlike a bard who will lose his chants if he does.

Aye I know, it is abit too much of theory to stake out examples and so on where x group will get pwned, since x can always happend.. etc.

But I can say as much as I done alot of alb 8v8. And I would never play without a theug, ran two at times to wtf pwn bd+valk grps. For me alb has no kite and lacks alot of lockdown capacity without a theug, you will never get the upper hand in a fight that starts off on equal terms without one, you will never be given a window of oportunity to actually let loose on the body sorc + caba + sorc dps wich will kill.

[Cadelin]

Originally Posted by Patriarch<>Matriarch

But I can say as much as I done alot of alb 8v8. And I would never play without a theug, ran two at times to wtf pwn bd+valk grps. For me alb has no kite and lacks alot of lockdown capacity without a theug, you will never get the upper hand in a fight that starts off on equal terms without one, you will never be given a window of oportunity to actually let loose on the body sorc + caba + sorc dps wich will kill.

There will be no Bd and they have already stated the current state of valks will be changed.

Albs can kite perfectly well without Theurgs, every caster has spells with more than 1500 range. I also don't see what kind of lockdown capacity either Mid or Hib have that Albs now don't have.

If you have only played 8v8 as an alb it must be hard to judge how balanced a Theurg is. You said yourself you wouldn't run in a group without one so surely that indicates that they were a very strong class.

[Chimaira]

Dont wanna miss out on theurg haste either. Supposedly given to some crap class like wizard I bet

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Originally Posted by Cadelin

There will be no Bd and they have already stated the current state of valks will be changed.

Albs can kite perfectly well without Theurgs, every caster has spells with more than 1500 range. I also don't see what kind of lockdown capacity either Mid or Hib have that Albs now don't have.

If you have only played 8v8 as an alb it must be hard to judge how balanced a Theurg is. You said yourself you wouldn't run in a group without one so surely that indicates that they were a very strong class.

Well I mentioned the two theugs more as a statment on how important they been in Albion groups from my POV.

I played rr9 cleric, rr8 hybrid paladin, rr8 minstrel, rr6ish tri spec caba, rr8 armsman.

In mid I played rr7 aug/pac, rr8 skald, rr7 valk

In Hib I played rr6 bard, rr5 ench, rr6 druid

And from that I noticed how much albs need the theug. But I mean I will play hib on an Origin server if they manage to get one up wich ain't no guarantee at all. All I want is balance and I can't see that happening without the theug for alb as rupter and kite engine.

And theug ice pets + earth pets is what can lock you down completly, that is what makes it possible to kite and kite good. If you have a crappy theug in todays RvR I don't see you up with the top groups competing on equal grounds. And not much changed except for TOA and MLs for example hib and mid, they still have their base concept of rupt and cc.

Well I guess I'm wrong, albion do not need theugs at all, and alb will be fine.

[partyanimal]

pre si... mids and hibs whine they want a pet spam class like theurg for rvr but for pve as well...
what did they get? bonedancer and animist
bonedancer pre-toa, average soloer in rvr, no grps... in pve ... lol , post toa uber rvr , average pve with ml9 pet
animist uber pve and uber keep defence until nerf , after that ani has just spike dam in rvr

anyway albs are much better casterwise than mids even without theurg, sorc + wizzy + caba >>> rm + sm.

[Cadelin]

Originally Posted by Patriarch<>Matriarch

And from that I noticed how much albs need the theug. But I mean I will play hib on an Origin server if they manage to get one up wich ain't no guarantee at all. All I want is balance and I can't see that happening without the theug for alb as rupter and kite engine.

And theug ice pets + earth pets is what can lock you down completly, that is what makes it possible to kite and kite good. If you have a crappy theug in todays RvR I don't see you up with the top groups competing on equal grounds. And not much changed except for TOA and MLs for example hib and mid, they still have their base concept of rupt and cc.

Well I guess I'm wrong, albion do not need theugs at all, and alb will be fine.

You may feel you need a Theurg when competing against current ToA setups but in Origins the Theurg would be the only class of its type and terribly over powered, in both PvE and RvR.

I know ice pets + earth pets can lock down another group incredibly well but I am asking which OTHER class has ever been able to do that? Only the Bd came close and thats not going to be in origins.

In origins the 3 realms will have the same number of classes and the same number of abilities although they will be distributed among the class slightly differently. You have yet to give a reason why Albs won't be able to compete when they have the same abilities as Mid/Hib.

[Manisch Depressiv]

You're all missing the point really. You don't know the gear and the caps, but it will be weaker than now. Heavy tanks with current styles will trash all casters even if the tanks have 75 strength and 0% ToA bonuses.

A Sorc with shitty dex and cast speed will always be instae'd on incoming by some random class on a full population server and if it's hanging back it will get SoS'ed, so here goes your initial mezz that could buy you some precious seconds.

From there it will get trained, not being able to do much as it will get strafed and walked-through, game over.

Cleric, Cleric, Friar, Minstrel, 3 Tanks, 1 Earth Wizzards (for EB, ghetto NS, snares and roots and DPS) could work to a degree.

Would be interesting to see how they intend to fix disease.

[Manisch Depressiv]

Originally Posted by Cadelin

I know ice pets + earth pets can lock down another group incredibly well but I am asking which OTHER class has ever been able to do that? Only the Bd came close and thats not going to be in origins.

Banelord Heretic, better RA selection than Theurg, better Artifact selection than Theurg, more survivability, base line buffs, base heals and so on.

Pre tendrils nerf with Purge 3 it was just a joke: run into a group, get stunned, purge and interrupt them all.

Worked as good as a Theurg against shit groups.

[Gahn]

Am not entirely sure that a 50 shield tank guarding a caster will let him be trained THAT easy since the triad changes.
If the trend is waving back the balance to Heavy tank groups 2 guarders COULD be a must for Hib and Alb, moreso if the cc reductions gets in (and if disease remains as it is) and if they remove or tone down once again Determination.

[Maeloch]

Originally Posted by Gahn

Am not entirely sure that a 50 shield tank guarding a caster will let him be trained THAT easy since the triad changes.

I seem to remember a screenie from pre-toa with a high mob pally chain blocking for a sorc vs a str/con debuffed train, so it probably wasn't that bad in the first place...

[Maeloch]

Hell once I even remember getting guard off jamies...

[Gahn]

Originally Posted by Maeloch

I seem to remember a screenie from pre-toa with a high mob pally chain blocking for a sorc vs a str/con debuffed train, so it probably wasn't that bad in the first place...

Yeh wasn't that bad, but surely it is better without the 50% reduction ^^
Moreso if the train swaps target and goes for the Guarder (i remember being trashed my self even before the guarded one from the Savages train, which thx god we won't see no more at least without that effectivness).